recommanded amp for bass speakers (Tweaks)

by Jeroen, Sunday, February 09, 2020, 10:16 (56 days ago)

Dear all,

Does anyone has got a suggestion for a good sounding amp voor the bass section?
I'm using hypex plate amps Bert tuned for me a couple of years ago. Altough the (bass) speakers measure quite well I do miss power in the bass. They sound like there all no bass speakers at all. (which could be a good thing).
Bass speakers are a rip of Bert's famous Sigma speakers. 6 12 inch speakers/side, 80 hz horn, no speaker enclosure at the back.
Orphean horn for mid and high.
Thanks for your input in advance.

Kind Regards,
Jeroen

[image]
Mic 500 mm of the speaker

[image]
Mic from listen postion

[image][image][image]

Hi Jeroenrecommanded amp for bass speakers

by Bert @, Sunday, February 09, 2020, 20:24 (55 days ago) @ Jeroen

Hi Jeroen,

You're using the same woofers as in the Sigma and I have plenty of power in the bass...?

Perhaps the crossover (DSP-settings) are improved over time?

Are you sure all woofers are playing? All settings are correct? No inverts somewhere?

What else did you change in the system?

Cheers,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

Hi Jeroenrecommanded amp for bass speakers

by Jeroen, Wednesday, February 12, 2020, 16:29 (52 days ago) @ Bert

Hi Bert,

Thanks for your reply.

Hi Jeroen,

You're using the same woofers as in the Sigma and I have plenty of power in the bass...?

Lucky you!

Perhaps the crossover (DSP-settings) are improved over time?

How do you mean? Did you improve your own dsp settings?

Are you sure all woofers are playing? All settings are correct? No inverts somewhere?

All woofers are playing. I checked the phase by measuring with a microphone. When the woofers were playing out of phase a dip was visible around the crossover point with the Orpeans. In order to play in phase with the Orpheans I had to connect the plus input of the Hypex to the min output of the tube amp for the Orpeans.

What else did you change in the system?

Not to much. I used to bridge both channels of the Hypex. Now I use one channel for 3 woofers in parallel. The other channel for the other woofers. Didn't notice much of a difference. I had to rebuild the woofer cabinets a bit because I had to change the veneer (came loose). Then I decided to open de mouth of the cabinets a couple of cm's for aestheticial reasons.

I rembered a friend a mine measured our living room years ago. See graph below. There is a huge gap in reverbaration time around 125 HZ. Could that be the reason I experience not enough bass power?
Could this been improved by using dsp room adjustment? (my friend prescribed acoustic panels etc. but due to ultralow WAF factor i am not allowed building those

[image].

Kind Regards,
Jeroen

Hi Jeroenrecommanded amp for bass speakers

by Bert @, Thursday, February 13, 2020, 10:52 (52 days ago) @ Jeroen

What else did you change in the system?


Not to much.

I meant the rest of the system in amplifiers, CD-Player, Streaming?

I rembered a friend a mine measured our living room years ago. See graph below. There is a huge gap in reverbaration time around 125 HZ. Could that be the reason I experience not enough bass power?

I do not think that it will influence that much. A drop in output at the listening position itself could give the feeling that the bass is lacking in dynamics.

But you were happy before? So again, what changed?

Cheers,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

Hi Jeroenrecommanded amp for bass speakers

by Jeroen, Thursday, February 13, 2020, 11:31 (52 days ago) @ Bert

What else did you change in the system?


Not to much.


I meant the rest of the system in amplifiers, CD-Player, Streaming?

Since you tuned the filter 4 years ago I've got a new 300b amp for the Orpeans, new Phonstage and turntable

I rembered a friend a mine measured our living room years ago. See graph below. There is a huge gap in reverbaration time around 125 HZ. Could that be the reason I experience not enough bass power?


I do not think that it will influence that much. A drop in output at the listening position itself could give the feeling that the bass is lacking in dynamics.

But you were happy before? So again, what changed?

I was happy for a long time, mostly because the speakers didn't had the resonance problem I had with my previous speakers.
Still I wasn't totally happy after a while. In stead of connecting the input of the Hypex to the output of the tube amp, I bought a crappy solid state amp which I put between the pre amp and Hypex. This givings a more satisfying bass sound. In order to get a nice bass sound I have to increase the volume of the Hypex more than the tube amp. So when measuring with the microphone the low freqenties are higher than the output of the Orphean. Is this a bad thing?

Kind Regards,
Jeroen


Cheers,

Bert

Hi Jeroenrecommanded amp for bass speakers

by Bert @, Friday, February 14, 2020, 16:00 (51 days ago) @ Jeroen

Hi Jeroen,

Still I wasn't totally happy after a while. In stead of connecting the input of the Hypex to the output of the tube amp, I bought a crappy solid state amp which I put between the pre amp and Hypex. This givings a more satisfying bass sound.

Euhm... why not just increase the gain on the Hypex? The extra amp is only giving more gain to the signal and probably even more (negative things)...

In order to get a nice bass sound I have to increase the volume of the Hypex more than the tube amp.

How do you know that more volume is needed compared to the tube amp? Unless you know precisely the amount of gain the "crappy" amp gives of course...

So when measuring with the microphone the low freqenties are higher than the output of the Orphean. Is this a bad thing?

No idea... it depends on where you have the mic placed during your measurements.

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

recommanded amp for bass speakers

by Kevin @, Minneapolis, Sunday, February 16, 2020, 20:50 (48 days ago) @ Jeroen

I also have Orphean Horns. And I use a pair of Hypex PSC2.400 Plate Amps with Klipschorn Bass Bins. The Hypex are bridged and have 500 watts per Channel. I have as Much Bass as anyone could want. I would guess that you have some other problem that a Bass Amp will not solve. If Bert set up your system and you liked it then, something has changed.

recommanded amp for bass speakers

by Jeroen, Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 13:16 (46 days ago) @ Kevin

Problem solved.

When I reconnected the woofers for the bidged modus of the Hypex the bass was as it should be, powerful and dynamic.

Still don't no why it sounded so poor when I connected the woofers for using the 2 channels of the Hypex. The freq. response looked better then in bidged mode..

recommanded amp for bass speakers

by Bert @, Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 13:34 (46 days ago) @ Jeroen

Still don't no why it sounded so poor when I connected the woofers for using the 2 channels of the Hypex. The freq. response looked better then in bidged mode...

The Hypex has two amps... normally used for 2x 3 woofers in parallel.

Bridging the thing will put all 6 woofers in parallel which is 1,5 ohms (half of only three woofers in parallel)... not an easy load for an amplifier!

Glad that things worked out though... ;-)

But still, send me a frequency plot of the system measured at 1m distance (edge of the horn mouth) at 1m height. Scale it from 20 to 1.000Hz with minimal smoothing (1/6th). The vertical scale showing 10dB steps...

Cheers,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

recommanded amp for bass speakers

by Jeroen, Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 13:55 (46 days ago) @ Bert

Hi Bert,

Woofers are 8 ohm?

I connected 2 pairs of (3 woofers in parallel) in serie. This way the load should be 2 x 2.66 ohm = 5,3 ohm.

When you tuned the Hypex 4 years ago it was also connected this way.

I will do some measurements and post it asap.

Regards,
Jeroen

recommanded amp for bass speakers

by Bert @, Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 14:25 (46 days ago) @ Jeroen

I connected 2 pairs of (3 woofers in parallel) in serie. This way the load should be 2 x 2.66 ohm = 5,3 ohm.

When you tuned the Hypex 4 years ago it was also connected this way.

That is an option too but how did you connect this to the amp? The way is should when you are planning to bridge the amps or were you using only one amp?

The software has quirks as well...

Show me the way you have connected the amp with the 2 wires besides the graph.

Cheers,

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

recommanded amp for bass speakers

by Jeroen, Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 15:10 (46 days ago) @ Bert

[image]

Hereby the way I connected te speakers.

recommanded amp for bass speakers

by Bert @, Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 19:54 (45 days ago) @ Jeroen

Connect it all like this....

[image]

Then do not bridge and make sure that both channels have the exact same DSP-configuration!

Click on each tab and compare...

[image]

When done measure as suggested before and report back.

Good luck!

Bert

--
BD-Design - Only the Best!

recommanded amp for bass speakers

by Jeroen, Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 06:55 (26 days ago) @ Bert

Problem solved.

When I turned around channels of the hypex to the left and right section ( channel 1/2 to left section, channel 3/4 to right section, vs channel 1/2 to right section etc.)of one of the bass speakers phase problems were over.
(Stil don't get why, both channels of the hypex should be the same..

Finally can enjoy music again!

Only one problem remains. The system can play so loud without the slightest sign of disturbance or harshness I put on a dB meter while listening to make shure not to let my ears bleed.:smile:

Thanks Bert!

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